Multiple grids and LoTW

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w0dhb
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Multiple grids and LoTW

Post by w0dhb »

Frequently in satellite and UHF/VHF work there were times when a station may be operating from multiple grids.
The grid square field in Log4OM it is not large enough to allow more than two 4 character grids (example DN70,DN71...)

also there is a problem with how multiple grid QSO's work with LoTW

For example a QSO with a station located on the DM79,DN70 boundary, both grids are entered in Log4OM as DM79,DN70 .
Uploading the QSO to LoTW works fine, both grids are recognized.

After the QSO it is confirmed in LoTW and it's downloaded to Log4OM, only grid DN70 appears in Log4OM, DM79 is gone.

I'm assuming that a similar situation will occur when logging QSOs with stations located on a four grid boundary (DM62,DM63,DM72,DM73) but the grid square field wouldn't fit the string.

Thanks
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G4POP
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Re: Multiple grids and LoTW

Post by G4POP »

I have never ever been presented with this as a requirement in my ten years of logging software development is there any other main stream logging software that accepts multiple grid locators?

Do any other users find this to be an issue?
73 Terry G4POP
w0dhb
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Re: Multiple grids and LoTW

Post by w0dhb »

Hi Terry

EQSL and LoTW both handle the multiple grid case.

HRD Logger is not handling it correctly and I'm going to check with users of N3FJP and DXKeeper.

Thanks
w0dhb
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Re: Multiple grids and LoTW

Post by w0dhb »

Terry

After doing some research on the topic, discovered some interesting info
First, DXKeeper and N3FJP support the ability to have more than one grid per QSO.

I put the question out to the Amsat-bb and am still getting more responses

LoTW supports multiple grids per QSO, below is an ADIF file downloaded from LoTW, you'll see it has 2 GRIDSQUARE entries
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<APP_LoTW_OWNCALL:5>W0DHB<STATION_CALLSIGN:5>W0DHB<CALL:4>N8HM<BAND:4>70CM
<FREQ:9>435.12697<BAND_RX:2>2M<FREQ_RX:9>145.96969<MODE:3>SSB
<APP_LoTW_MODEGROUP:5>PHONE<QSO_DATE:8>20150103<TIME_ON:6>175340
<PROP_MODE:3>SAT<SAT_NAME:5>AO-73<QSL_RCVD:1>Y<QSLRDATE:8>20150106<DXCC:3>291
<COUNTRY:24>UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
<APP_LoTW_DXCC_ENTITY_STATUS:7>Current<APP_LoTW_2xQSL:1>Y<CQZ:1>4<ITUZ:1>8
<GRIDSQUARE:4>EN84<GRIDSQUARE:4>EN85
<STATE:2>MI<CNTY:14>MI,MONTMORENCY<eor>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that eqsl does the same thing and am trying to confirm.

From my original request, I believe part of it really is a bug, Log4OM is altering the Gridsquare field when downloading from LoTW.
My grdsquare before download read EN84,EN85 after download it read EN85. At the very least Log4OM should not alter the gridsquare field as the result of an LoTW download. LoTW only uses gridsquare for VUCC determination, not for QSO matching.

If you were to fix that issue as well as expand the Gridsquare field Satellite operators would be a happier lot ..

Thanks for listening
Dave W0DHB
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Re: Multiple grids and LoTW

Post by G4POP »

<GRIDSQUARE:4> Is a field title

If an ADIF field is followed by another field with the same title it is treated as the same field and overwrites the first field this is why you get just EN85 recorded because the second entry overwrites the first. As I am sure you are aware you can't have two fields with the same title as with file names?

Using a comma as a delimiter between two pieces of data in the same field can cause issues with other forms of export and import like in CSV files so GRIDSQUARE:4>EN84, EN85 is not a good idea

If enough users request this multiple locator then we could add it to our Mantis list for future development but I think it will cause issues with ADIF export and require some heavy coding.

I do however agree that we should not overwrite the existing grid square data with that included in the LOTW ADIF because it is not required to match the QSO's. - This I will add to Mantis
73 Terry G4POP
w0dhb
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Re: Multiple grids and LoTW

Post by w0dhb »

Terry

Understand, what about the issue of Log4OM altering the Gridsquare field when downloading from LoTW ?

None of the logging software packages I looked at altered the gridsquare entry when downloading from LoTW.
This keeps mucking up my log everytime I download from LoTW.

I have a program which allows very easy Satellite QSO logging (Interfaced to Log4OM and SATPC32) which is gaining users, I'll rally the troops and have them express their interest. There will be an article about it in the Amsat(NA) Journal in a couple of months.

FYI - in the latest ADIF spec there is a feature "GRIDSQURELIST" which is defined as a list of gridsquares , I've seen it used though

Again, Thanks
Dave
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G4POP
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Re: Multiple grids and LoTW

Post by G4POP »

w0dhb wrote:Terry

Understand, what about the issue of Log4OM altering the Gridsquare field when downloading from LoTW ?
Read my reply again please
FYI - in the latest ADIF spec there is a feature "GRIDSQURELIST" which is defined as a list of gridsquares , I've seen it used though
I realise that because I am on the ADIF developers group but it is not being used by LOTW! I don't know of any developers that wanted it with the possible exception of AMSAT and it was dropped from the proposal for ADIF 3.04
73 Terry G4POP
w0dhb
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Re: Multiple grids and LoTW

Post by w0dhb »

Terry

I apologize, I have not properly communicated.

Regarding "Gridsquares", I meant to say I have NOT seen it used, sorry. I mentioned only because it probably is meant to be the correct method to use when and if multiple grid support is implemented.

Regarding the Issue of the grid field being overwritten when importing from LoTW. This occurs even if there is a single grid specified in LoTW's ADIF file.

In checking out other logging software (DXKeeper, HRD) they do not alter the grid when downloading from LoTW, single or multiple grids. I am fairly certain the only thing altered is the LoTW status.

I can see a case being made for both methods, alter the grid field or not, maybe it can be an option at some point.

I will poll some other Sat Users and get together features they would like to see for multiple grid support, there was pretty much universal agreement that no logging software does it correctly, 2 of them keep the data in their grid field, but only the first grid is included in their VUCC tracking ... one person I spoke with using HRD gained 13 grids when I pointed it out to him.

DXKeeper allows up to 4 grids (4 fields) to be entered and does track VUCC awards, but the ADIF output us DXkeeper defined fields to specify the additional grids.

I really appreciate your time in responding and very much appreciate all the efforts going into Log4OM.

73's Dave W0DHB
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G4POP
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Re: Multiple grids and LoTW

Post by G4POP »

w0dhb wrote:Regarding "Gridsquares", I meant to say I have NOT seen it used, sorry. I mentioned only because it probably is meant to be the correct method to use when and if multiple grid support is implemented.
Rejected by ADIF developers and not in the latest ADIF spec 3.04
Regarding the Issue of the grid field being overwritten when importing from LoTW. This occurs even if there is a single grid specified in LoTW's ADIF file.

In checking out other logging software (DXKeeper, HRD) they do not alter the grid when downloading from LoTW, single or multiple grids. I am fairly certain the only thing altered is the LoTW status.

I can see a case being made for both methods, alter the grid field or not, maybe it can be an option at some point.
Answered in my previous post, I agreed to add it to Mantis!
73 Terry G4POP
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Re: Multiple grids and LoTW

Post by IW3HMH »

I never saw an ADIF field set twice...
It's possible to handle that, but, really, i think it's a bad use of ADIF protocol that is NOT reported in any ADIF document...
by the way the ADIF grid is very clear... and doesn't overlap... so i wonder how you can be in a grid, and in another grid at the same time...

lele
Daniele Pistollato - IW3HMH
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