QSO end time
QSO end time
Hello, Is there a way to set up Log4OM so it will log QSO end time only (manual time entry)? Thanks for any help. 73, --Lenny W2BVH
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G4POP
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Re: QSO end time
No there is not but I cant understand why you would need to do that?
73 Terry G4POP
Re: QSO end time
Explanation of why "I would want to do that?":
For microwave qsos, and other weak signal work (which I do a lot of) openings are brief and signals are sometimes barely audible. When a qso ends, I'm chasing (or being called for) the next contact immediately. I'm adjusting the antenna and receiver to try and pull the next signal out hoping band conditions don't deteriorate.
In these conditions, the quickest way to log is to jot notes on a pad and then enter the details into the logger after the session is over (e.g. after no one else is around or band has closed). For qso time, I typically jot down just the end time on the pad. Before I got Log4OM I did paper logs and just entered the jotted end time in the log book (no start time logged). I would like to continue using this method with Log4OM. Currently with Log4OM I have to "invent" a qso start time.
As an example this past Monday I had 6 QSO's in quick succession on 1.2 GHz and used the above method for all the logged QSO's.
For manual time entry in Log4OM, if it sees an end time that is before the start time and it then either clears the start time to blank or makes the start time equal to the end time, it would make life easier.
I hope this is a good explanation? Any consideration of this feature greatly appreciated.
73, Lenny W2BVH
For microwave qsos, and other weak signal work (which I do a lot of) openings are brief and signals are sometimes barely audible. When a qso ends, I'm chasing (or being called for) the next contact immediately. I'm adjusting the antenna and receiver to try and pull the next signal out hoping band conditions don't deteriorate.
In these conditions, the quickest way to log is to jot notes on a pad and then enter the details into the logger after the session is over (e.g. after no one else is around or band has closed). For qso time, I typically jot down just the end time on the pad. Before I got Log4OM I did paper logs and just entered the jotted end time in the log book (no start time logged). I would like to continue using this method with Log4OM. Currently with Log4OM I have to "invent" a qso start time.
As an example this past Monday I had 6 QSO's in quick succession on 1.2 GHz and used the above method for all the logged QSO's.
For manual time entry in Log4OM, if it sees an end time that is before the start time and it then either clears the start time to blank or makes the start time equal to the end time, it would make life easier.
I hope this is a good explanation? Any consideration of this feature greatly appreciated.
73, Lenny W2BVH
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G4POP
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Re: QSO end time
Lenny,
Is this generally the practice for everyone involved in microwave qso's or just your own way of doing things?
Is this generally the practice for everyone involved in microwave qso's or just your own way of doing things?
73 Terry G4POP
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DF5WW
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Re: QSO end time
Hi Terry,
think his own. A counting QSO have had a start and an endtime and not only the endtime ...
Think that´s the reason that ADIF specs need both or as minimum the starttime. Think any
of the online logs need the start date and time to crosscheck and not only the end date/time.
Only my few cents ...
think his own. A counting QSO have had a start and an endtime and not only the endtime ...
Think that´s the reason that ADIF specs need both or as minimum the starttime. Think any
of the online logs need the start date and time to crosscheck and not only the end date/time.
Only my few cents ...
73´s .. Juergen ... ALT-512 SDR (10W) , 50 m random wire at SG-211 autotuner, 2 x Xiegu G90 (20W HF TRX) one as portable Radio. Also TS-790E (40 W) for VHF/UHF with X-50 vertical and Duoband 4-Element LPDA.
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G4POP
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Re: QSO end time
This has always been my understanding Juergen but I could be out of touch with modern microwave operations as it is about 39 years since I was operating in the uhf and microwave bands.DF5WW wrote: ↑07 Feb 2019, 21:28 Hi Terry,
think his own. A counting QSO have had a start and an endtime and not only the endtime ...
Think that´s the reason that ADIF specs need both or as minimum the starttime. Think any
of the online logs need the start date and time to crosscheck and not only the end date/time.
Only my few cents ...
Wow that pulled me up with a jerk! I just realised that I started as a swl 70 years ago this year, OUCH!
73 Terry G4POP
Re: QSO end time
Hello,
Thanks for your additional questions.
I honestly don't know if recording end time of a QSO is a common practice in microwaves, though it's what I have always done.
I do have an additional couple of facts which may help.
1. I participated in the ARRL VHF+ January contest a week or so ago, and submitted a Cabrillo log to ARRL which was generated by the N1MM+ contest logger program. The Cabrillo has only a single QSO time recorded for each contact (I've always assumed it is the end time but this may not be true). The interesting point is that the Cabrillo was accepted by both the ARRL contest log checking program and by LOTW without complaint. It's been like this for a long time.
2. The ARRL log checking program is fairly liberal about the agreement of logged times for each side of a QSO. I know this from experience: I have done a run of 6 or more QSO's in a contest when I was considered DX (on 6 Meters) and logged the QSO's only after the run was complete (maybe 6-10 minutes after the first QSO of the run). The Q's were jotted down on paper and I transcribed them to the logger software after the run was finished, entering only the callsign and the grid (the logger produces the usual 599 sent and received). The logging program, of course used the time that the QSO was entered (as much as 10 minutes after it happened). This "after the fact" logging sometimes happens several times in a contest. As far as I know, I have never had these Q's rejected by the ARRL log checker because of a time discrepancy. I also asked Sean Kutzko KX9X (who at the time was the head of the ARRL contest branch) what sort of time offset would cause a QSO to be rejected. He didn't know for sure how long that is but he thought it was on the order of 20 minutes to a half hour.
I don't know if I'm making things clearer or less clear with this info (I hope clearer). I'd be happy to send you a copy of my January VHF+ contest log if you think that would help.
BTW you're no the only "old guy" in this discussion. I've only been doing microwave ham radio for around 10 years, but ham radio as a whole 55 years.
I'm interested in your thoughts on this with respect to Log4OM manual time entry.
73, --Lenny W2BVH
Thanks for your additional questions.
I honestly don't know if recording end time of a QSO is a common practice in microwaves, though it's what I have always done.
I do have an additional couple of facts which may help.
1. I participated in the ARRL VHF+ January contest a week or so ago, and submitted a Cabrillo log to ARRL which was generated by the N1MM+ contest logger program. The Cabrillo has only a single QSO time recorded for each contact (I've always assumed it is the end time but this may not be true). The interesting point is that the Cabrillo was accepted by both the ARRL contest log checking program and by LOTW without complaint. It's been like this for a long time.
2. The ARRL log checking program is fairly liberal about the agreement of logged times for each side of a QSO. I know this from experience: I have done a run of 6 or more QSO's in a contest when I was considered DX (on 6 Meters) and logged the QSO's only after the run was complete (maybe 6-10 minutes after the first QSO of the run). The Q's were jotted down on paper and I transcribed them to the logger software after the run was finished, entering only the callsign and the grid (the logger produces the usual 599 sent and received). The logging program, of course used the time that the QSO was entered (as much as 10 minutes after it happened). This "after the fact" logging sometimes happens several times in a contest. As far as I know, I have never had these Q's rejected by the ARRL log checker because of a time discrepancy. I also asked Sean Kutzko KX9X (who at the time was the head of the ARRL contest branch) what sort of time offset would cause a QSO to be rejected. He didn't know for sure how long that is but he thought it was on the order of 20 minutes to a half hour.
I don't know if I'm making things clearer or less clear with this info (I hope clearer). I'd be happy to send you a copy of my January VHF+ contest log if you think that would help.
BTW you're no the only "old guy" in this discussion. I've only been doing microwave ham radio for around 10 years, but ham radio as a whole 55 years.
I'm interested in your thoughts on this with respect to Log4OM manual time entry.
73, --Lenny W2BVH
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G4POP
- Log4OM Alpha Team
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- Joined: 21 Jan 2013, 14:55
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Re: QSO end time
Lenny,
Thanks for the answers and my comments are in line below
Because of the reasons above and general logging convention we must always add a start time the next question has to be ......
If we added a facility to automatically subtract n minutes from the end time and record that time as the start time! how many minutees should we subtract?
I will speak to Lele and see how difficult it would be to add such a facility but I am sure that you will understand that if a lot of coding is involved just to satisfy a request by one user it might not happen.
It would deffinately not be added to version 1 because it is purely on maintenence because V2 is being worked onn full time.
Thanks for the answers and my comments are in line below
N1MM records only the start time of a QSO thats why the Cabrillo file was accepted by the contest manager - All QSO verifications for confirmation by LOTW, eQSL etc work on start time by convention.w2bvh wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 02:36 1. I participated in the ARRL VHF+ January contest a week or so ago, and submitted a Cabrillo log to ARRL which was generated by the N1MM+ contest logger program. The Cabrillo has only a single QSO time recorded for each contact (I've always assumed it is the end time but this may not be true). The interesting point is that the Cabrillo was accepted by both the ARRL contest log checking program and by LOTW without complaint. It's been like this for a long time.
Most award systems allow some leeway on the start time and if memory serves the LOTW/ARRL system allows 15 minutes +/- on the declared start time by both stations.2. The ARRL log checking program is fairly liberal about the agreement of logged times for each side of a QSO. I know this from experience: I have done a run of 6 or more QSO's in a contest when I was considered DX (on 6 Meters) and logged the QSO's only after the run was complete (maybe 6-10 minutes after the first QSO of the run). The Q's were jotted down on paper and I transcribed them to the logger software after the run was finished, entering only the callsign and the grid (the logger produces the usual 599 sent and received). The logging program, of course used the time that the QSO was entered (as much as 10 minutes after it happened). This "after the fact" logging sometimes happens several times in a contest. As far as I know, I have never had these Q's rejected by the ARRL log checker because of a time discrepancy. I also asked Sean Kutzko KX9X (who at the time was the head of the ARRL contest branch) what sort of time offset would cause a QSO to be rejected. He didn't know for sure how long that is but he thought it was on the order of 20 minutes to a half hour.
Because of the reasons above and general logging convention we must always add a start time the next question has to be ......
If we added a facility to automatically subtract n minutes from the end time and record that time as the start time! how many minutees should we subtract?
I will speak to Lele and see how difficult it would be to add such a facility but I am sure that you will understand that if a lot of coding is involved just to satisfy a request by one user it might not happen.
It would deffinately not be added to version 1 because it is purely on maintenence because V2 is being worked onn full time.
73 Terry G4POP
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G4POP
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Re: QSO end time
Lenny
The simple way is for you to enter the manual start time by subtracting a couple of minutes from the end time, that you recorded on paper, in your head and then afterwards enter the end time, both will be faithfully reproduced in the log as shown below from the test I just did.
In this example the end time recorded on paper was supposedly 23:17;10 so I first entered 23:15:10 as a start time followed by entering the 23:17:10 in the end time field.
Saves us re-writing the code also!
The simple way is for you to enter the manual start time by subtracting a couple of minutes from the end time, that you recorded on paper, in your head and then afterwards enter the end time, both will be faithfully reproduced in the log as shown below from the test I just did.
- logging.jpg (33.15 KiB) Viewed 4370 times
In this example the end time recorded on paper was supposedly 23:17;10 so I first entered 23:15:10 as a start time followed by entering the 23:17:10 in the end time field.
Saves us re-writing the code also!
73 Terry G4POP
Re: QSO end time
OK Terry. Tnx. Couldn't hurt to ask.
Perhaps you could consider any of the following changes for the future, for manual time entry (might be less work to code than what I requested originally):
1. Using TAB / Shift TAB to jump between hours, minutes, seconds fields. And using TAB / Shift TAB to jump between Start Time and End Time edit boxes.
2. Allowing time to be typed in as a string. e.g.To enter 23:05:00 type in 230500 instead of having to go from field to field.
I believe both would streamline manual time entry.
Thanks for your attention and consideration. Log4OM is quite an elaborate piece of code for something that's offered free. Congrats.
73,
--Lenny W2BVH
Perhaps you could consider any of the following changes for the future, for manual time entry (might be less work to code than what I requested originally):
1. Using TAB / Shift TAB to jump between hours, minutes, seconds fields. And using TAB / Shift TAB to jump between Start Time and End Time edit boxes.
2. Allowing time to be typed in as a string. e.g.To enter 23:05:00 type in 230500 instead of having to go from field to field.
I believe both would streamline manual time entry.
Thanks for your attention and consideration. Log4OM is quite an elaborate piece of code for something that's offered free. Congrats.
73,
--Lenny W2BVH
